Then, fourteen years later, John Stott advocated a well-argued, yet tentative, case for the annihilationist position, when questioned by David Edwards in Essentials: A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue.6 The fact that one of the most respected leaders of modern evangelicalism supported the doctrine made people listen, and hence brought the debate to the attention of a wider Christian public.7 Since then, a range of books on both sides of the Atlantic has been published, most of them attacking the conditionalist position. In other words, Christian beliefs aren’t born solely and directly out of the Bible. Objections to this interpretation are numerous, and Stott himself attempts to deal with some of them, albeit briefly. Where in the biblical material do we find such an explicit scheme? 20:10). God is victorious in that he has wiped out all evil and resistance to his will for ever. Moving forward, if you don’t accept this line of argument, at least consider this. Pawson, turning the argument on its head, believes that the devil and his henchmen are persons—otherwise, how could they be tormented?18 Cotterell then adds that ‘it really will not do to dismiss this statement on the grounds that this is so stated only once’.19, In conclusion to this study of the biblical material, and having attempted to reply to the objections against his position, Stott concludes that, the most natural way to understand the reality behind the imagery is that ultimately all enmity and resistance to God will be destroyed. 68–71. A. J. Pollock (1864-1957) explains: A mistake common to all conditional immortality teachers is that of confounding eternal life with immortality. They were probably Plato's personal views that he put in the mouth of the book version of his teacher.". This doesn’t automatically mean that an idea such as an immortal soul can’t exist within the teachings of the Bible. 3. None of these verses allow for a soul to simply "die" as Conditional Immortality suggests. The second position is more of the mainstream view within Conditional Immortality, as it says that immortality itself is “conditional” upon salvation. The case is presented in his doctrinal thesis, ‘The Hermeneutics of “Hell”: The Fate of the Unrighteous in New Testament Thought’, Australian College of Theology, 1993, forthcoming from Paternoster Press. Is there not a grave level of disproportion between crimes committed in 70 years, and punishment administered for eternity? 17 M. Green, Evangelism in the Local Church (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1990), p. 70. Instead, I wanted to ask that if you believe in Conditional Immortality, then 1) Which church denomination are you a member/regular attender of? The smoke, not the torment, ascends for ever and ever. Conditional immortality is the name given to the doctrine that states that human beings are not inherently immortal, but rather have immortality conferred upon them as part of the experience of salvation. The Greek influences that many modern Christian faiths draw from are important. If one wishes to use hell as a departure point for preaching the gospel (and that is a heavily disputed point), then the prospect of annihilation still engenders fear. Some work therefore needs to be done in reconstructing anthropological doctrine and its history, in order to evaluate whether it actually has been developed and interpreted in the light of Platonic philosophy.22 On the other hand, many traditionalists are prepared to acknowledge the influence that Platonism may have had, yet still maintain that the anthropology which they have reached remains biblical—that is, an anthropology consisting of an immortal soul. Cook, "How Deep the Platonism," 269-286 in Farms Review of Books, vol. We simply insist that that great gift will be given to humans at the appropriate time. They teach that they are convertible terms. This vindictiveness is incompatible with the love of God in Christ.26, Whatever anyone says, unending torment speaks to me of sadism, not justice.27. Viewing other threads on the forum, I am really not wanting to start a debate. If you haven’t picked up on that subtle nuance already, some who believe in conditional immortality believe that the fires of hell are meant to eventually “consume” the person. Traditionalists therefore believe that the parable must be referring to the final state, when all are reunited with physical bodies. We have described the position of conditionalism, which attacks one of the premises of the traditional understanding of hell on the grounds that the wicked will not be given immortality and hence shall not suffer in torment for ever. It follows, then, that these personifications cannot suffer everlasting torment, as suffering cannot be experienced by symbols. Revelation 14:10 is interpreted by Stott and others to refer to the moment of judgment, rather than to everlasting conscious torment. They contend that this is what Jesus meant by “unquenchable.” More importantly, if we're going to remain consistent with this logic, then lets erase the Christian faith. The answer: it doesn"t." This is a debate about whether or not Conditional Immortality is Biblical. So both the language of destruction and the imagery of fire seem to point to annihilation.20. No votes have been placed for this debate. Therefore, any consideration of this argument must look at the biblical grounds for immortality. The apparent illusion of justice in the act of destroying the person hides the fact that annihilation takes away any dignity the person may have. Furthermore, my evidence above highlights that many Christian historians and theologians found divine knowledge and the pursuit of spiritual truth to be at the very core of this philosophy. Those who accept Jesus Christ will continue to exist through eternal salvation, while those who reject Jesus Christ will die, no longer existing in any physical or spiritual form. There are therefore numerous hermeneutical questions that must be answered, and until we work through them, we should build our case on what is undoubtedly contained in the teaching, not on what is disputable. Love can never be hate. It seems that many of its advocates can quite rightly be labelled as pillars of conservative orthodoxy. Granted, common assumption doesn't make a component necessarily true, however I'm not concerned with the absolute truth of a retained identity, but that it is a component of the traditional idea of an immortal soul. Blanchard emphasizes the use of ‘their’ worm, suggesting that the ‘worm’ refers to the sinner’s conscience.12 Fudge acknowledges this position, but argues that this cannot be so, as the imagery from Isaiah refers to a devouring worm that eats what is already dead.13. The Traditional View (hitherto called ECT), can only be true if we borrow from Platoinic/Greek philosophy and mythology. If Conditional Immortality wants to maintain its position, it has to grant these qualities about the soul in order to allow for eternal salvation. Their existence must serve some purpose, and once that is admitted the view that their eternal punishment glorifies the justice of God seems perfectly logical.28, God’s justice is glorified in that sinners receive their due punishment. Only when we have considered context, setting and other variables can we make a fully informed decision. This is part three of our series on original sin. 15:28) to come out? 35 Jonathan Kvanvig, The Problem of Hell (Oxford: OUP, 1993), pp. Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. However, it seems that these topics can all too easily distract from the biblical and theological discussion in hand. Although we associate conscious torment with fire, annihilation would be the outcome, and thus an appropriate interpretation of the texts. This debate either has an Elo score requirement or is to be voted on by a select panel of judges. 12 J. Blanchard, Whatever Happened to Hell? The argument does cause us to re-evaluate our reasons for believing in the specific structure of certain doctrines. First, apply my previous argument about the scope of this debate to my defense here: just because it’s not directly stated in the Bible doesn’t automatically discount it as an idea. A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching, The Hebrew and Aramaic Lexicon of the Old Testament, Dictionary of the North-West Semitic Inscriptions (Handbook of Oriental Studies 1/21, 2 volumes), Words Become Worlds. This interpretation can best be summed up in the Westminster Confession1: a reformed confession of faith made in 1646 by the Church of England that remains influential for many forms of Christianity world-wide. On Gehenna (Greek for “the fires of hell”) and Tartarus (Greek for “lower regions”): Matthew 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels ...' ", 2 Peter 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment ... (ESV). First, such argument inevitably leads to a diminishing of the seriousness of sin. There are numerous other matters that need to be taken into consideration within the context of this debate about the meaning of the biblical texts. Conditionalists acknowledge this, yet resist the doctrine in order to preserve the biblical insistence on human freedom, judgment and division. Secondly, most traditionalists major on the glory of God. Thanks for a good debate. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (London: Geoffrey Bles, 1940), p. 94. 2. However, several comments must be made at this point. Cyclical Argument: Socrates argues that life and death are opposing, yet interconnected like hot-cold, asleep-awake. In the first death, only the body is destroyed in the graveyard. Although justifications may be provided for this apparent problem, it seems that they must be independent of the annihilationist debate. Others, however, make reference to the eternal nature of those who are sent there: Revelation 14:11 refers to "no rest day or night" for those who've sinned; Acts 2:27 refers to the abandoning of one's soul to Hades; 2 Peter 2:4 refers to "chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment". If so, is that a point for Con? The voting period for this debate has ended. Michael Green follows a similar explanation, maintaining that this isolated verse is not enough on which to build what he refers to as the savage doctrine of eternal suffering.17 Traditionalists reply in two ways. More recently, conditionalism and annihilationism have been given a wider public airing as a result of two important works. 148, 230. 6 J. Stott and D. Edwards, Essentials: A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1988); Eryl Davies, An Angry God? When adopting the received categories of that particular debate, conditional immortality is effectively rendered in anthropological terms as the affirmation of contingency for human beings. In effect, annihilationism masks the larger problems of hell.35 It may be unfair to criticize annihilationists for believing such a doctrine because it appears to be the easier ‘option’. L.E. How can a soul be made in the image of God, be immeasurable yet knowable like all other “not perceivable” things, and yet be destructible? 31 Travis, Christian Hope and the Future of Man, p. 135. Paul calls this gift (immortality) an integral part of the gospel message, "Who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 … But, when they sinned, God separated them from the Tree of Life so they would eventually die. One is the use and meaning of aion̄ios, the word generally translated as ‘eternal’. Case in point: the soul may not be immortal at all… or may not even exist. You don't go to Hell for a few years and then just die. I too look forward to this interesting discussion. 1:9); the meaning of the second death (Rev. The first was by John Wenham, in The Goodness Of God,5 where, in a chapter dealing with the moral difficulties of believing in hell, he presented conditionalism as a possible option. More recently, the doctrine has received the renewed interest of a specific debate amongst evangelicals concerning whether hell is eternal conscious torment or whether the wicked are annihilated after judgment. A plenary talk given by Chris Date of Rethinking Hell at the 2016 international Rethinking Hell Conference in London. Thus, Annihilationism is sometimes called, “Conditional Immortality.”(Only the devil and the beast are accepted as beings that deserve to suffer eternally … Starting off, it is important to clarify the two positions of the pro and con. Conditionalism sits on a scale involving other judgments that need to be made, and if not used as the decisive argument in the debate, it may then tip the balance one way or the other. However, let’s look at the Pro’s original challenge in Round One: “I, as the Pro in this debate, agree with this idea [Conditional Immortality] and challenge Con to defend the traditional idea that the soul is naturally immortal.”. The work of David Powys34 has attempted to demonstrate that taking the inter-testamental material into consideration can aid our understanding of the NT texts and thus lead to an annihilationist position. “We recognize that the interpretation of hell in terms of conditional immortality is a significant minority evangelical view. I will supplement some of this with material from other conditionalists, and then consider the responses made by a number of traditionalists. Specifically, these translations are refering to aspects of Hell, and therefore describe the concept as opposed to simply refering to Hell as a location. The motive behind Fudge’s belief, which must be applauded, is that whatever he finds in Scripture, he will follow. Further more, as my biblical quotes on Hell point out, it's kind of an eternal sentence. This debate has been configured to only allow voters who meet the requirements set by the debaters. (Bridgend: Evangelical Press of Wales, 1991), p. 14, notes that at least ten years earlier Stott expressed his agnosticism concerning the precise nature of hell. This line of argument parallels discussions of universalism in many ways. The two main thrusts of the story are the reversal of fortunes and the irreversibility of the two states.15 Traditionalists emphasize the physical aspects to this story. Semantic Studies of Genesis 1–11 (Biblical Interpretations Series 6). Theology is always close to home when we have a vested interest in the subject, and this is even more the case when it comes to the doctrine of hell. But Preston has since become convinced of conditional immortality, and will be speaking on the topic of this conference. These relationships need a constant: something that sleeps and wakes requires a body (take away the body and there is no sleeping or waking). 7 An explanatory note must be made with reference to Stott’s position. by The Bible Thumping Wingnut Network from desktop or your mobile device This has been sufficient for the generations of philosophers who’ve followed, and should be sufficient for this debate. However, if annihilation is true, a gospel still remains to be taught, and it is a gospel that is just as desperately needed. I’d be happy to, if he had in fact written anything down to begin with. Take, for example, the concept of Hell. Through much of history, conditionalists have been arguing against the idea of an immortal soul that is impervious to the flames of eternal torment. : Reflections on Suffering and Evil (Leicester: IVP, 1990), p. 103; see also L. Dixon, The Other Side of the Good News (Wheaton: Victor Books, 1992), p. 127. Conditionalists base their argument on 1 Timothy 1:17, 1 Timothy 6:16 and 2 Timothy 1:10. Therefore, all the redeemed will be immortal, and life in heaven willbe everlasting and consist of a perfect and glorious existence. Perhaps Travis’s advice concerning the interpretation of this story is to be welcomed: ‘Jesus is here making use of a popular Jewish tale, and so we would be rash to press the details of the story.’16. The use of apollumi (to destroy), when employed in an active form, points towards extinction (as when Herod plotted to kill Jesus: Mt. On the other hand, some may have chosen this option because of uncertainty concerning the biblical data and the assumption that annihilationism does solve the moral problems associated with hell. First, it’s important to recognize that as Con, I’ve been asked to “. 14:11 and 20:10). 3. Form of Life Argument: like other “not perceptible” things, a soul can’t admit to being the opposite of something it naturally is. The Pro can’t reconcile this discrepancy under his own logic, but the answer is simple. In 1974 John Wenham expressed the need for fresh study and ‘serious consideration of the case’ for the doctrine of conditional immortality (The Goodness of God, Leicester: IVP). In the New Testament, a few passages that directly mention the presence of Hell include1: Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. Therefore, all the redeemed will be immortal, and life in heaven will be everlasting and consist of a perfect and glorious existence. Hints exist in the creation account (man and woman made in the image of God, made for life and not mortality, made for communion with God, and so possessing something of God’s immortality) and in Ecclesiastes 3:11: ‘He has put a sense of past and future into their minds.’ It is argued that not only does this passage indicate that humans are created with a capacity to appreciate the eternal importance of the world, but also have a ‘desire for eternal things which in turn implies a spiritual dimension and nature in men’.25 The implication of this argument is that, as human immortality is assumed in Scripture, those passages which speak of God having immortality alone are referring to a quality of life that God possesses and subsequently gives to the redeemed, rather than to an expression of duration of existence. Secondly, although conditionalism makes an important point concerning anthropology (which will be explored later), both sides of the annihilation/traditional debate tend to agree that whether immortality is inherent or not, God alone has the power to give and take away life in all its forms. Although some writers argue that this is not the case, others argue just as cogently that fear of a conscious judgment followed by ‘nothingness’ is just as real as fear of eternal pain.36As for hell as a moral deterrent, such a case arguably misses the Christian understanding of ethical action, and may lead to confusion in the doctrine of justification by faith. True, we must interpret them in their correct context, but even so, the victory of God becomes even more apparent when we believe that the wicked will eventually cease to exist. Simple put: souls are immortal and will either go to heaven or hell. The first death is temporary. Nevertheless, this does not discourage Stott, as he maintains that, it would seem strange … if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; and … it is ‘difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing’.9, Traditionalists may agree that the word can have different meanings, yet assert that in the context of references to hell it denotes something perishing or being ruined—the object remains in existence.10. If souls fall into this same general category of things as God, then how can they ever possess the opposite of their defining feature? However, universalism’s pedigree extends right back to the early church and Origen’s theory of apokatastasis, the idea that everything, perhaps even the devil, will eventually be restored to God. 5:18; 11:32; 1 Cor. Conditional Immortality (which is also sometimes called annihilationism and conditionalism) is the position that only those who have trusted in Christ will be granted continued, eternal existence in the afterlife. The whole debate between soul immortalists and conditional immortalists comes down to this: one group says that the soul lives on when the body dies, thus declaring its nature to be immortal (soul immortalists), while the other side says that the soul isn’t immortal by nature but becomes immortal when the person receives Jesus (conditional immortalists). And he co-authored erasing hell with Francis Chan A number of years ago, and at the time, they both landed on the doctrine of eternal torment. ), Universalism and the Doctrine of Hell, p. 187. Finally, to address my opponent’s critiques on Socrate’s four arguments: 1 & 4. In the debates, immortality is usually taken to mean the inability of the person to perish. Babies are a good example of this. And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.” (Chapter 32). This interpretation can best be summed up in the Westminster Confession, Simple put: souls are immortal and will either go to heaven or hell. In defending the traditional idea of the Immortal Soul, I’m required to draw from these influences unless I want to commit a fallacy against my own position. This was in response to the disagreement between Christian beliefs and the biblical vacuum, where I was arguing that the very source of Christian beliefs had Greek influences. 18 D. Pawson, The Road to Hell (London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1992), pp. The answer: it doesn’t. 3 See especially L. Froom, The Conditionalist Faith of our Fathers (Washington: Review & Heal Publishing Association, 2 vols, 1965, 1966), and E. Fudge, The Fire That Consumes (Texas: Providential Press, 1982) (revised and compressed edition—Carlisle: Paternoster, 1994, in which Fudge responds to his critics). First, this isn’t exactly what the argument is saying: the soul survives as the constant for human life, not after. I’ll keep things simple by going down his list of critiques. We need to exercise caution in this whole area, as it is all too easy to import contemporary ideas of victory and justice into a situation of which we know very little. While most Christian faiths believe in an immortal soul, most biblical scholars agree that specific references to this idea are absent within the bible, The point is, the Pro’s belief that the Bible is the sole influence on Christian beliefs goes against what most Christian faiths currently believe in. 22 On this whole area, see the work of J. Cooper, Body, Soul and the Life Everlasting (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1989); see also Powys, ‘The Hermeneutics of “Hell” ’. If my soul can’t retain the things that defined my experiences in life, then my resurrection would be like hitting the reset button. There is not room here to provide this whole structure, only to indicate the form of the debate. Much work needs to be done (especially on hermeneutics, concepts of justice, and assumptions concerning immortality) and much is left for future discussion and debate. Thus, the parable contrasts life with punishment rather than equating their duration. This is not the place for that conversation. Early Christianity was influenced both from its Hebrew roots3, and ancient Greek philosophy4. Speaking of that return, Paul says that it will happen “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. Thus, the conditionalist may challenge received notions of anthropology, but if Scripture teaches eternal suffering to be the case, then they have not got far in connection with the doctrine of hell. Or perhaps the Bible actually does directly mention the traditional view of an immortal soul, and I just missed it. Annihilationism (Conditional Immortality) Universalism (a minor view, but held by the likes of Origen) Universalism, as espoused today by the likes of Rob Bell, will not be discussed in this particular undertaking. Recent studies of the whole debate have raised a number of general considerations. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.' However, does not the doctrine of annihilation allow the full force of the supposedly universalist verses (such as Rom. Do we perform good deeds to avoid hell? My original point was that the Bible never specifically references this idea, much like it never specifically references the exact theory that Conditional Immortality argues for. Stott’s case is that our preconceptions force us to read it in this manner, whereas the passage never actually defines the nature of those eternal states. Since eternal damnation implies an immortal soul is required to experience an eternity of punishment, Conditional Immortality must reject this view. Pro is asking for evidence that the soul survives after being the constant for human life. The answer: it doesn’t. 14:11)? Blanchard emphasizes the personal pronoun—the smoke is of ‘their’ torment, and thus the suffering must be everlasting. This issue is connected with the third: how can the redeemed in heaven be unaffected by the existence of the wicked in hell? Lewis states clearly what is probably true for most modern Christians. Even more so, do we turn to Christ to avoid hell? Socrates is only arguing for things that are perceptible and not perceptible (you can either observe something or can’t). ; David Powys, ‘The Nineteenth and Twentieth Century Debates About Hell and Universalism’, in Nigel M. de S. Cameron (ed. Jude 7 And don't forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. It is now recognized that this word may have both a qualitative and a quantitative aspect—thus ‘the age to come’ is a possible phrase to describe the concept, and this would cohere with some annihilationist apologetic. The idea of an immortal soul found its way into Christian thought primarily from the teachings of Socrates and Plato, perceptible, composed of parts, and subject to dissolution and destruction”, and things that are “ not perceptible, but intelligible (grasped by thought), not composed of parts, and exempt from dissolution and destruction. Hell, in fact, is not incompatible with God’s victory—hell glorifies God’s justice, and all in hell are subject to God, even if they are rebellious. Once again, the Pro raises some interesting issues in this debate. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God's judgment. If we accept this logic, then we might as well erase Socrates from the field of philosophy altogether. 2 (1999). I may often feel that God is far away, but the experience of my feeling does not alter the truth that God is closer than I can ever imagine. Obviously, if the Pro wants to defend this idea through biblical references, as he did in round two, that’s his choice. It is often said that this heaven will be eternal both quantitatively and qualitatively, the former referring to duration, the latter referring to the type of eternal existence. Thus the wicked consistently refuse God, repeatedly sin, and therefore deserve eternal punishment.30 Even if this is not the case, it is not clear whether annihilation (eternal death) is any easier to justify than conscious hell (eternal suffering). Even though the Pro never brought these critiques up the round after I made these arguments, I will address these issues nonetheless. 2 The varying uses of terminology are helpfully explored by Kendall S. Harmon in ‘The Case Against Conditionalism: A Response to Edward William Fudge’, in Nigel M. de S. Cameron (ed. He makes four arguments to support this claim: These are some fairly complex arguments to make, so I’m going to end with a basic summary of my position and the challenges this position presents to Conditional Immortality. The Pro can’t reconcile this discrepancy under his own logic, but the answer is simple. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. What about a priori knowledge, or knowledge I’ve gain without having experienced or learned? 66:24, and how best to understand Rev. Pro argues that some things don’t fit within overall categories, as in a flightless penguin. We find such an explicit scheme passages describe a place of eternal damnation implies an immortal soul found its into! Attempt to refute some of this Conference only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of Hell never! Even though the Pro correctly points out that we ’ re debating whether Conditional immortality teachers is a... Are important whom we love however, does not the doctrine in order to the! Argue that physical pain must be done carefully and with prayer the number three, being odd... Committed in 70 years, and it is the issue of immortality irrelevant the... According to Scripture only God possesses immortality in himself ( 1 Tim s Greek influence, let ’ s on! 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